This episode features a conversation between Phil Dillard, Founder of Thruline Networks, and Jill Poet, Co-founder and CEO of the Organization for Responsible Business, or ‘ORB’. In this episode, Jill talks about her passion for small business sustainability, defines what it takes to be successful in the industry, the lessons she’s learned along the way, and why small businesses are driving the future of business overall.
This episode features a conversation between Phil Dillard, Founder of Thruline Networks, and Jill Poet, Co-founder and CEO of the Organization for Responsible Business, or ‘ORB’.
The ORB is a UK-based, business membership organization with a mission to create positive change for business and society by showing small businesses the financial benefits of being socially and environmentally responsible.
Jill is a management accountant, but never just a back-office number cruncher. Having worked with small businesses her entire life, she takes a hands-on approach, affording her involvement in many different aspects of operations, namely project management. She has experience running her own small accountancy firm, and believes wholeheartedly that doing good is ultimately good for business.
In this episode, Jill talks about her passion for small business sustainability, defines what it takes to be successful in the industry, the lessons she’s learned along the way, and why small businesses are driving the future of business overall.
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Guest Quotes
“We have always believed that doing good is good for business. And, we've always taken that approach rather than saying that you have a moral obligation to do these things, but actually, guess what, If you do them and do them authentically, properly, it will be good for business. And weren’t convinced by that then. They are more so now. And, I think, in the UK and probably in the States as well, increasingly, whether your custom is the consumer, private sector, public sector, they're all looking to buy goods and services from companies that have got those ethics and values.” - Jill Poet
Episode Timestamps
(01:56) About the Organization for Responsible Business
(04:43) Jill’s background and getting into small business
(09:41) Defining success in her work
(24:55) Lessons learned and small businesses driving the future of business
(28:29) Members and benefits of the ORB
(32:52) Quick hit questions
Links
Phil Dillard: Hello and welcome to Thruline to the 4th Sector, where we're exploring fourth sector capitalism and impact investing as an invitation to innovation and changing the world. This episode features a conversation between Phil Dillard, Founder of Thruline Networks, and Jill Poet, Co-founder and CEO of the Organization for Responsible Business.
The ORB is a UK-based business membership organization with a mission to create positive change for business and society by showing small businesses the financial benefits of being socially and environmentally responsible.
Jill is a management consultant, but never just a back office number Cruncher. Having worked with small businesses her entire life, she takes a hands-on approach, affording her involvement in many different aspects of operations, namely project management. She has experienced running her own small accountancy firm and believes wholeheartedly that doing good is ultimately good for business.
In this episode, Jill talks about her passion for small business and sustainability, defines what it takes to be successful in the industry, the lessons she's learned along the way, and why small businesses are driving the future of business overall. Now, please enjoy this interview between Phil Dillard and Jill Poet.
Hello everybody and welcome again to another episode of Thruline to the 4th Sector. I'm your host, Phil Dillard, here today with Jill Poet, Co-founder, and CEO of the Organization for Responsible Business. How are you doing today, Jill?
[00:01:39] Jill Poet: I'm good. Thank you, Phil, and it's a pleasure to be here with you today.
[00:01:43] Phil Dillard: Pleasure to have you. It's been a long time coming and I'm glad we're actually having a good, clean conversation. I'd like to just jump into this and get started with a super easy question to get the ball rolling. What people ask you, what do you do? How do you describe what you do?
[00:01:57] Jill Poet: Well, the first thing I normally say is we are trying to change the world one small business at a time, which is our mission statement. Um, and when after I get the blank look, I say we're trying to encourage small businesses to operate ethically and responsibly and care about people on the planet,
[00:02:14] Phil Dillard: and that's a, a great, uh, mission. What does it really mean for the small businesses who are, are trying to do that?
What challenges do they have and, and how do they show that they care?
[00:02:25] Jill Poet: Oh, that's a big question. There's, there's lots of ways and it's really got to be about the core values of the, your part of the business. So the immediate response is often that, oh God, that's something that's gonna cost me lots of money.
And actually that's not the case. Of course, there might be things. You might be thinking of environmental things, big things where you might spend lots of money, but there's lots of other things that we can all do that really don't cost nothing, can reduce overheads and help you be more profitable. So it's about thinking about the impact that you make and cost.
Every single business is, is different. Will have everything from a maybe a website designer that works in his. Office that has very little impact to a small manufacturing company, which is vastly different. So it's thinking about what you're doing, what impact your business has and what you could do to make it a bit better.
And of course, when we talk about people, if you have employees, Good business starts there. It's about looking after people, about caring about people, not just the statutory duty because we all have a statutory duty, but going that step further and really thinking about their wellbeing and engaging with them and motivating with them.
And then also thinking about how you can get involved with the local community. Because again, it's, we're not an island as a business, you know, we are part of that local community and it's important to us. And that's not just about necessarily volunteering or giving money. There can be lots of ways that we can get involved.
And also thinking about people maybe in the supply chain that we don't know, never, ever meet. But the stuff that we are buying and doing could be impacting maybe indigenous peoples in other countries. So it's really wanting to do the right thing and just thinking about the impacts that your business has.
[00:04:29] Phil Dillard: It's amazing. We talked to lots of different folks in there, different types of businesses, of different sizes and shapes, but the fundamentals are generally pretty similar. They in that gotta think about who you are and what you're doing and how you impact the community that you, you choose to serve, that you focus on small business.
Can you tell us a little bit of background? Like how did you get involved in this field? What brought you to this point and, and, and why did you choose small
[00:04:54] Jill Poet: businesses? Yeah, absolutely. Well, my background is quite, I say it's quite different. Um, my background has actually helped me develop what we have got at all, but my background is actually management accountancy, so I spent 40 years of my life working with micro and small businesses, working with them within them.
For them, or as a micro small business myself, across a variety of sectors. When you are working with tiny businesses like that, you're not just number crunching your hr, health and safety, project management, whole load of different things. So it's given me a really broad understanding of. Small businesses, lots of information.
I probably didn't realize that I've got a lot more knowledge, broader knowledge than than most people have. So I'm very passionate about small businesses. I worked for one year in the city, in the corporate world and hated it, so hence the rest of my life. I've worked locally with those small businesses and I gave up.
I was employed as a financial controller for. Solicits and I gave that up handed in my notice because my husband and I wanted to launch a particular project. It wasn't this project, it was a a magazine. Which we launched. It was a hard copy magazine. We then converted it to a website, and that website still exists today.
It's called Healthy Life Essex, but we converted it to what is called a community interest company. It's a special form of social enterprise in the uk. And I was going to a lot of meetings where there's a lot of talk about corporate social responsibility, about social enterprise and so forth, but the emphasis, the talk was always, always about the big corporates and whatever you call it.
Whether you call it corporate or not, you know that bipo business is relevant to every size. So with my small business background and my small business passion, I looked to see what was happening in that small business world and actually discovered that really not a great deal. There was little patches here and there, but there was nothing of any significance that was driving that agenda for micro and small businesses.
So, As you do, my husband and I decided that we would do something about it. And uh, that was 2008 just after the crash. So it was, you know, that was a time we just started to develop the organization for responsible businesses and we, we launched in 2010, early 2010.
[00:07:32] Phil Dillard: Was there any reason that you did it?
Just at that time? When we think about small business in 2010, they're coming out of financial crisis. There's lots of things going on with, uh, different changes probably in the UK and globally. Were there any particular movements or trends or, or thinkers or things going on at the time that really, uh, really moved you to make
[00:07:55] Jill Poet: that change?
It was because I felt that it was the right thing to do, but you are absolutely right. We were so ahead of the game, and when we were talking to small businesses, then we'd talk about the importance of caring about people, caring about the environment. And again, we nearly always got this blank look. And I would say 90% of the time the response was, oh, we recycle.
And that was about it. And you know, and it got to the point where actually it was really quite funny. It was very, very challenging to get them to understand. And importantly, I suppose, because my background is business rather than. Third sector. I come from a a business proposition. So we have always believed that doing good is good for business.
And we've always taken that approach rather than saying that you have a moral obligation to do these things, but actually guess what? If you do them and do them authentically, properly, it will be good for business. And people weren't convinced by that. Then they are more so now and. I think in the UK and probably in the States as well, increasingly, whether your custom is the consumer, private sector, public sector, you know, they're all looking to buy goods and services from companies that have got those ethics and values.
[00:09:23] Phil Dillard: Sure. And I think it's interesting that you know, you're ahead of the time. You've seen a lot of changes and now there are a lot of people who are digging into this. And one of the challenges that we've seen is consistency in, in measurements or consistency in descriptions of, uh, impact or success and that sort of thing.
So can you stick us through how you work with the small businesses, how you kind of define what success looks like and improve measure improvements along the way?
[00:09:52] Jill Poet: Absolutely. Again, because small businesses are all so very different, we take an approach that we call asti, which stands for appropriate size, type, and impact of the business.
So I talk about launching, or when we launched, we launched as a a membership organization. And a year later we also launched a very robust evidence-based certification, not as part of the membership. There is a criterion for membership. There's a, there's a process that you go through, but the certification is very much about that robustness to really see what businesses are doing.
What is interesting, when you talk about the measurement side of things, there is a lot of talk about measurement, and there's also a lot of talk about. Evidence in social impact. And I think you have to be really careful with that because especially with small businesses, what do you measure against?
Because there isn't a one size fits all benchmark and that's hence out our as the approach. So if anyone does any of our certifications, they have to go through an online course, first of all. And the purpose of that is all the topics that would, they'd getting the certification are there. But the purpose of the course is get them to really think, to dig deep inside themselves and think, are we doing enough on that topic?
Could we be doing a bit more? Should we be doing a bit more? And what should we be doing relative to their business? Not, you know, we want you to do X, Y, Z. Can you get to that? Because it might not be appropriate for their business. And that's sadly what you see too often with a, a lot of other certifications.
So we get them to go through and to think like that and then submit the evidence and the, when the auditors look at it, they don't look at it against any one size fits all benchmark. They look at what is appropriate for that particular business. You know, if you're talking about something like social value, for example.
If you are a charity perhaps and you are providing services to maybe the homeless or something like that and you get funded, cuz charities do you clearly need to be able to evidence what social value you are providing and that's quite easy for them to do because they're providing a direct service.
You have a tiny business that. Every year, they give quite a lot of their time to doing maybe pro bono work. For example, if it's a marketing company, if they totally change the logo, the style, total rebranding exercise, and they spend a lot of money, lot of time doing that, not money, then they do it free of charge.
It's very difficult to actually be able to measure what impact that is. We wouldn't even try to do that because I don't think it's the right approach. So measuring can sometimes be very important, but you have to be realistic about it. And sometimes just being able to say, wow, that small business is doing a huge, huge amount.
Look at all the different areas. Gold staff, theoretically speaking, rather than saying, well, because they've changed the branding on that charity they've reached. X number of people and they're doing that much more good because you can't tell.
[00:13:22] Phil Dillard: Yeah. You know, that's a very interesting, insightful point, and I think it's one we're digging into cuz I, I try to connect the dots here, right?
One knock on, for example, non-profit is that people will use what I'll call fluffy metrics that are just saying we reached X number of people, we touched y number of people, we had Z number of impressions. And it's hard to say, you know, what the impression was or reaching people, what it actually did.
Right. And then I started thinking about, um, organizations I've seen recently. You know, there's a nonprofit that's work with that helps people getting jobs. Another one that helps people with, uh, helps communities. With regenerative agriculture and another one that was actually measuring carbon credits that's come under fire recently for their measurement not being so effective.
And there's a probably a fine line between measuring what you can, analyzing the measurements for insights and for impact, and then like relating those to things that matter. In the local community and possibly aggregate up or scale up into the larger community. Do you see a difference or any sort of trends in looking at each company individually to see what they can do, but then looking at the macro effects of what happens as a group or across the industry or across a region?
Do you see anything that helps showcase how we can evolve this discussion of measurement?
[00:14:47] Jill Poet: I think it is that macro impact and I think. We always talk about driving a movement for a better way of doing business, and it is about driving that movement. It can be quite hard to measure, but the more people that you engage, the more that you know that things are changing, how you measure it, because it's that ripple in the pond effect, isn't it?
So those ripples can reach far and far wide. Um, you might do something that in itself is, is quite tiny, but someone maybe that we've, we've put post out a blog out, um, some information out. Someone might look at it and go, oh, I want to be part of that. I want to join, I want to become a member. I want to take the certification.
But they might just go, oh God, that makes a difference. Yeah, I'm not doing that and I should be, I'm going to. So they might be changing because of something they've seen that we've done and we might never, ever know. And that's not just about us. That happens to a lot of people. The phrase that says, be the change you want to see comes to mind because it is about all of us that care, doing the right things, talking about it, which was really important.
So many people, and. Some of our members that have gone through the sort of application process, I've had to really dig deep because there's nothing on the website, nothing on the LinkedIn profile that talks about the great things that they are doing. We need to be talking about it and sharing that information, because the more we do that, the more it becomes the norm and the more that reverberates out.
[00:16:25] Phil Dillard: And there's some point where there is a tipping point in the activity or in the mindset or the nature of the community. It's like when cops talk about, uh, broken windows policing or why you knock down graffiti or how community recycling or cleanup programs elevate a certain certain thing to a point where things change.
To use the words that I heard you say, it's, we recycle turns into something else. That we do. And, and I'm just curious if you've seen any trends or any specific examples that maybe a story of something that where you've seen it start to catch on where you've seen a positive contagion or halo effect?
I've seen
[00:17:04] Jill Poet: two very different areas that really excites me. And you know, I'm well past retirement age, Phil, but what I'm seeing now, Whereas the fight, you know, the bruises that we had in the early years, the challenges where people haven't got what we're talking about and now I'm seeing a difference. It just really excites me and, and drives me forward.
So the two strongest differences that I'm seeing now, we're seeing a lot of people, typically millennials, but not always coming out of the corporate world. Because they've got that great career trajectory, lovely salary, lovely bonuses, and, but they're going. Actually, this doesn't feed my soul, that company's values aren't aligned with ours.
I'm going to leave and start my own company. And a lot of our newer members in the last year or so have done that. And not only are they starting their own company, but if you look at their website on that, Homepage, they are saying we will only work with ethical companies or whatever phraseology they use, but it's right out front, which is what they're doing, which really, really excites me.
I'm sure you'll understand that. Conversely, we're also seeing a lot of companies, established companies that been going for years, maybe decent people, um, not doing anything bad, but working very much from a do no harm approach. Where they've suddenly had a light bulb moment where they think actually we need to get involved more, we need to reduce our environmental impact.
And they move from do no harm to actually starting to make a positive impact. And they, they, you know, there might be early stage on that journey. And of course, from our perspective, that's even more exciting because it is the people that you, you change. That is making the difference, rather than if we only engage with people that are doing everything, then we are not actually making a difference.
As lovely as it is to be talking with those people and have them as members, it's the ones that are on the journey and you want to move them along and support them and speed up that journey.
[00:19:20] Phil Dillard: Right, because if you meet them on the journey, there's prob, you've probably seen people before them or behind them in the process, and there's something you can use to add value.
You've got the standards to deliver to them and help them answer questions so that they're not wandering, wandering through that themselves. I mean, there's. Co-learning and there's co-facilitation and sharing of, of best practices across industries or different types of companies, or even lessons from different communities that you should be able to see that they can't, so you can help them to move towards this, this target.
[00:19:52] Jill Poet: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we are consultants ourselves. We provide those various platforms, but we don't provide a direct consultancy service. But of course we collaborate with lots of consultants in different specialisms, so if anyone needs some specific support, we can always sign post to the right places.
[00:20:09] Phil Dillard: So how does the business model work for you then?
You mentioned being past retirement age, but, um, and I'm not sure how, um, how the business model itself, uh, works and how, how people, uh, exchange value. Can you comment on that
[00:20:23] Jill Poet: again? You know, going back to the two parts, the, the membership is the, the key part. When we launched back in 2010, we were. Just a normal company, limited by shares, and then we changed it to the community interest company, social enterprise type that I mentioned to you before, but that didn't do anything really to protect the legacy of the company.
Over the last year or so, we've been increasingly concerned to ensure that we protected it. So last year we incorporated a note company with not for profit. Status Articles of association. The articles also talk about our purpose and even some of the processes that we need to retain, so we move the existing company across to the new company.
And we simultaneously gifted the company to our members. Although I think still think of it mentally as my company. I don't actually own it. It's owned by the members and I'm still working as c e o and still working as hard as as ever. And the reason for for that is that in company law, if any articles are made, want to be made to the articles of association, 75% of.
The members and all the members have a vote, have to agree to those changes. So that's really protected the legacy of, of what we are doing. So in terms of becoming a member, people can't just say, oh, I like to look at that or pay my money, and I can get that nice shiny logo. It's not an onerous process that they have to go through an online questionnaire.
They have to make a pledge to always consider people an environment and aim to. Operate, make a positive impact, and then we'll always have a Zoom meeting as well, and that's where we can really dig deep and make sure those. Values are aligned. So we have networking events, we share our members details out to the wider work and with a network.
So you know, that's the core membership process. In terms of the certification, if anyone wanted to do that. As I say, they go through the course and then it's very much about submitting everything. Online evidence-based, but if they have five or more employees, they'll also get a site visit. So, um, that's our business model.
[00:22:51] Phil Dillard: So I'm curious about the, the member ownership part. Because there are a lot of folks who are talking about group ownership of companies or increasing ownership of companies. Now I hear, usually hear this more from Gen Z and, and younger millennials than, you know, folks who are at the other end of the, the spectrum.
And it's often, um, a critique. Of capitalism. It's not the folks who go all the way to saying we should be fully socialist or communal, but they're just driving towards a little more in, uh, group ownership. Have you seen any benefits or changes in the membership of the organization when they understood that they're owners, member, owners of the company, not just members of another group?
[00:23:32] Jill Poet: Yeah, the fact that we gave it away was a huge thing for existing members. We also have a member council. We have a board of directors, so we've got, um, board of nine directors at the moment. It can go up to 12. The additional free will be voted on, opted on from the member council. So the member council is, you know, members that want to get a bit more involved.
So just to be clear, the members don't run the organization. The member council, the purpose of that is to ensure there's communication both ways between the membership and the board, which is really important.
[00:24:09] Phil Dillard: Are there any geographic trends? Like, um, I'm assuming that this is all across the uk, but maybe centralized in certain places, or do people come from all over
[00:24:18] Jill Poet: it?
They do. Um, obviously, I mean, we're based in, um, Essex, one of the home counties. Because we started here and we know more people here, or we've probably got a higher percentage. But actually, yes, we have got members right the way across the country from Scotland to komo and and Wales. We do get little pockets of enthusiasm.
I think that's natural that you make a few contracts in an area and, and you know, you've got a group where they're more likely to spread it than others That. Operate in isolation war, but it is right the way across the country.
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So as you're thinking about lessons from the work so far, and you're thinking about, you know, what it looks like in the future, what do you think are some of like the most important things that you've learned so far and how that ties to the role of small business driving the future of business? I mean, you get to see a bunch of businesses from across the country, right?
From across a, a region. The first thought is that certain types of people would, would rally to this, right? But like I would expect most people to think that younger people were driving the change, but I would think that it would be multi-generational and that there are all types of people who have all different types of reasons for doing the same thing.
And for making the changes in their business.
[00:26:47] Jill Poet: Yeah, you're absolutely right, Phil. I would say it's multi-generational, and it's an interesting point when you talk about young people because. There tends to be this perception that it is young people that are different and driving this and they're all engaged with the agenda.
And actually that's far, far from true. There's a big divide and I think it's either one way or the other. So it tends to be those that have a better education, maybe a, you know, a better, um, background. Are very engaged and very, very aware and are driving it. But you have got a, a lot of young people that are struggling that come from disadvantaged backgrounds and they're very much.
Well, I just wanna live my life and enjoy it. And that a long way from being engaged, probably less so than similar generations a few years ago. So, so there is that huge divide there and you can sort of understand it because if they've been brought up in adverse conditions and you know, just everyday living is a bit of a struggle and maybe it's third or even fourth generation that have lived that life, then you can almost understand why.
They're just out there looking after themselves, which is a sad place to be. It's not something we get directly involved with. We get indirectly involved with it because part of the conversation is there are people in these areas that need support, and as businesses we have a responsibility. And one of the things as a business person that you can do to make a difference is mentoring.
Whether that is in schools, because that's really, really powerful. There's statistics that show that if young people have engagement with business people, they're more likely to to prosper in the workplace. Or it could be people coming out of the armed for forces or homelessness where they're trying to get them back into work.
There. There's all sorts of areas where people can get involved, so it's not saying, That's got nothing to do with us, cuz it has, but as an organization, it's not something that we are directly involved with.
[00:29:14] Phil Dillard: Mm-hmm. And what sort of things do you find people coming to you for? I mean, I would expect there are some people who are running small businesses who say, I like this.
I want to be part of this. This makes sense to me. Right. And they become engaged members, but there's other people who say, wait a minute, you're a portal to a bunch of small businesses and I'd love to be able to partner with you for, for whatever reason. Uh, what sort of people are you seeing who sees the membership and, and wants to engage with you?
[00:29:41] Jill Poet: That's an area where we look to for the future. I think it's happening. We've got a directory that the. Directory we have is just just about to be outdated to a nice, bright, new, shiny one. But our directory has got a little bit that talks about what the company does. So Joe Block selling widgets and a much bigger bit that talks about what it is that makes them a responsible business.
So what they do in their business and that that's just free form. They just write what they want to. So that directory gives the option and, and that's pushed out to the. The wider universe. It's not one of these sort of member directors that's hidden deep in layers. It's member to member. The whole point of it is pushing out there.
So the purpose of that is, is whether it's the consumer, private, public sector, um, it's a place where they can find. The people with the values that they can work with. Our numbers aren't enough yet to really be pushing the message, but our aim is that we want to get to a point, particularly with the private sector, where we can say, as part of your corporate social responsibility, I.
You need to be working with values-based businesses. And look, we've got all these wonderful organizations here, so we are not quite at a level where we can justifiably push that, but we are nearly there. So that's the aim for next year.
[00:31:04] Phil Dillard: So it's not to the point of saying, you know, a corporate is gonna look to them to be vendors, major vendors or some big organization's gonna look to the membership to put out its message.
But, um, it is big enough that if you're taking a road trip around the UK and you want to consume with your dollars when you're going somewhere and know that. Your dry cleaner or the restaurant that you're going to aligns with your ethos. And you could use that as a resource to say, I'm gonna go, well, there's two Italian restaurants right across the street from I'm gonna go to restaurant A because I know that it's my ethos because it's part of this community,
[00:31:43] Jill Poet: for example.
Yeah. An interest in Lay Phil. Um, we very much believe in collaboration, so we are working with a company, it's a new company, new, you know, tech-based company. And they're producing an app that is very much focused on that retail side of things, and it will actually show that they're not looking at having their own certification.
But what it will show is the certifications that they have got or the memberships that they have got. And that site will have details of what that certification on membership actually means, um, so that people will be able to go on that and look and get a real understanding of. You know, what, what those different businesses are doing.
So it's very much about working together. Um, and, and, and it's exactly that because it, that is so powerful, especially on a retail site. They're early stage, but they're looking at particularly, um, cafes in, in London at the moment. And they'll be blooming out from there, but I think they're gonna grow quite quickly.
So that's exciting.
[00:32:48] Phil Dillard: Yeah. That is ex exciting. You know, that makes me think, um, you may probably make assumptions of what types of companies actually sign up for this, but can you share a little bit about industries that were unexpected that that appeared? Or, or companies that you expected or you were, you were surprised by?
[00:33:05] Jill Poet: I suppose partly because of my background, one of the things that frustrates me immensely is that, We haven't got as many accountants, um, as I would like to have. There are far too many accountants that are still just understanding or looking at bottom line profit and, and nothing else. And that's really frustrating.
And we've actually got some ac accountancy associations that are members and are driving to drive that, trying to drive that down their, their own membership. Um, and they're really struggling with it. Which is, which is very frustrating. I mean, we have got some accountancy members, but not as many as I would like to.
So we really, really need to change that mindset.
[00:33:52] Phil Dillard: Interesting. Hmm. There's always something that you're, you know, that you're not expecting or, or that's the surprise in this, we're getting close, um, on time, so I want to get to our, to the point of our lightning round. We ask those same sort of four questions to get to wrap the folks up, and I'll just go through those right now.
So the first one is, uh, 10 years from now, what does success look like to you?
[00:34:16] Jill Poet: Well, um, there's two levels of that because 10 years from now I don't think I'm going to be active in the business. So on a very personal level, I hope I will be enjoying my retirement. Um, I will probably be maybe involved, I dunno, maybe as a chairman or something like that, what success looks like to me.
It's not financial success at all. It's actually seeing the organization broon, more companies coming on board, a greater understanding of the, of the principles that we promote and just that it becoming the norm. So that rather than at the moment, it seemed as, oh, that's what those sort of soft, fluffy organizations do, it becoming the norm that this is the way a good business operates.
So that's all. What's successful they like, can they? So I'm no longer talking to people and saying, caring about people on the planet and getting a blank look. They understand and they get it.
[00:35:23] Phil Dillard: Yeah, they're doing a lot more than just saying, we, we recycle. Right. And thinking about their business holistically and, and growing.
That sounds amazing. So, um, right now outside of your company, is there a project or a program or campaign that inspires you?
[00:35:39] Jill Poet: Outside of my company. Uh, there's lots of things actually I haven't written a book. Not sure if you're aware of that. So that's an exciting time. But I'm involved with a project with, uh, it's, I can't say too much cause it's very early stage with another environmental company and there's a few of us that have got involved and we are looking about driving change.
And looking about doing something that's going to make an impact at government level. You know, having very specific asks, but rather than the sort of extreme asks that we see now that most governments have to go, ah, we can't do that. That's too much. Just being very, very realistic about it. So that's exciting.
[00:36:26] Phil Dillard: That is exciting. You know, I, I think of, um, some of the local government challenges. There's some things that people ask government to do to, to do everything. And there's some times when people seem to partner with government and just say, help us get this done. And that seems to be a more effective and realistic approach.
Because people need to sometimes forget that they are part of, they are government, right? They are not just subjects. What's the most important thing you think individuals can do, individual people can do to lead to a better future?
[00:37:00] Jill Poet: Reduce consumption. Consumption is the overriding problem across the world.
Well, in the western world that I have, the money can afford to keep buying, buy buying, and interestingly enough, Sometimes you'll even be getting the wrong message from environmentalists. So, for example, electric cars, for most people as an individual, the most sustainable car you have is probably the one that you've got, unless you do huge, huge mileage.
But for people that have got, uh, you know, run of the milk car and don't do a lot of mileage on a, on a daily basis. They really should keep the car that they've got, rather than buying an electric car because of the embedded carbon that's in anything that you purchase. And it's particularly high in something like a car, but on a, you know, to the consumer.
People to all of us as individuals, you know, do you need more clothes? Do you really need to upgrade that phone? Now you've run out of contracts, doesn't it? Do what you want it to, you know, computers, everything. Everything. It's that consumer isn't actually, that is the bottom of the, all the problems we have.
[00:38:21] Phil Dillard: How do you square that with when the, a small business who needs revenue and growth? If I'm a, if I'm a clothing shop, I need to sell, I need to sell clothes. And if I'm a, if I'm a computer shop, you know, I might need to sell new computers. I might, may or may not be able to repair them. In some places, there's a fight going on for the ability to do that, right?
Newer phones, void warranties. If you have a third party, replace the the screen. So have you seen any ways that showcase how we can get to a better consumption model? Yeah,
[00:39:00] Jill Poet: there's a lot of people that are doing things like that. I totally agree, Phil. That can be a challenge. But I think it's saying to small businesses, think of this as an opportunity.
What could you do in your business? Where you are, you've still got the turnover, you're still making a profit, but you're actually doing it in a better way rather than in encouraging people to go stuff, stuff, stuff. So obviously in terms of. Of clothing. The main thing would be better quality stuff that's going to last for longer.
If people can go that way. Can you offer repair services? And of course a lot of people are also now going into vintage or you know, reuse or all those sorts of areas. There's lots of businesses springing up like that. It's not to say that we shouldn't be doing or having nice things. It's not saying that in any shape or form we can still lead nice lives and have nice things, but just, just be be sense about it.
So, you know, if you're talking about a hairdresser, what products can they use that are more environmentally friendly? Are they doing something with the hair that they sweep up? Cuz there's charities that can use that. Are they trying to find ways that they can maybe reduce the water usage and, and because they're like very much community shops, what things can they do within that to support the local community?
Encouraging people about better ways of looking after their hair rather than, so there, there's lots of things that. Most businesses can do. Obviously if you are in that, uh, fast fashion show, fast fashion field, then yeah, if you wanna stay in that, then clearly you, you're in a damaging area. But can you change that?
Could you see that as an opportunity to, to move your business model?
[00:40:57] Phil Dillard: It would be really interesting to see what small business can do to challenge big business in that regard. I would love to see a small business licensing of a interesting type of fabric that, um, eliminates the desire for your fast fashion, wasteful, everything that's bad with fast, fast fashion, for example.
So I feel it. Um, last, uh, but certainly not least, what's the most important thing that governments and NGOs can do? To lead to a better
[00:41:26] Jill Poet: future. They need to look at it all more holistically. And it's a big problem, not just whether you're talking about central government, local government, schools, any public sector area, there's always silos that look at different, different things rather than looking it all together.
So for example, if we think we have got a problem with the cost of living, We've got people that are relying in the UK in 2023 on food banks, people that are working, not just people that are unemployed. There's a health crisis, not just in terms of the nhs, but so many people are living in bad health and there's an environmental crisis.
No one puts it together that that actually, if we've got a lot of people that are struggling financially, their health is bad. If we can encourage 'em, show them how, not just tell them, but show them how to eat a more plant-based diet that is healthier for them. It's cheaper for them, um, that they have to cook.
They have to learn how to cook, which a lot of people don't. And it's better for the environment that is dealing with so many different areas. And no one is putting it all together. And, and that's just a typical example of, it's the biggest problem. We've got to acknowledge that we have all these problems.
But if you just delegate that to one department without that cross reference to other departments, that is, you know, what, what's happening on, where are the synergies that we can do one thing that impacts two or more challenges that we are facing?
[00:43:16] Phil Dillard: Yeah, it's quite interesting that you say that. Just yesterday I was reading this book called What Your Plants Ate, and in a chapter of the book it talks about the government ministered in the UK during, uh, world War ii.
I think it was 43 44. Uh, actually he was before the, the war intensified and came to the uk, but they were concerned about food and nutrition in the, in the country and he said, you know, the wealthier eating too much eggs and white bread and so and so and so, so, so and such and such, and the poor were not eating enough vegetables and minerals and, and nutrient dense food.
And they used. Education and rationing and their import strategy to increase the public health of the UK and actually made a substantive difference in how people were healthier, how soldiers were healthier, and uh, increased. The public health, uh, over those periods versus decreased in a time of, uh, and he was knighted for it.
And I think it's really interesting because, you know, several examples in the book talk about small scale actions that people can take. So on our few acres, Of land people exploring regenerative agriculture, for example. They could bring healthy foods to communities like you're talking about in a very small, very effective local approach that could change health.
Food is health, and that's just one of many different steps, people to take in the right direction. Yeah,
[00:44:46] Jill Poet: absolutely. You see little, again, little tiny pockets of that happening. But there's few and far between, and it does tend to be in r rural areas where even in the big cities there's opportunities for community gardens, gorilla gardening, where they're growing food and and stuff like that.
[00:45:05] Phil Dillard: But it seems like those are the insights and those are the opportunities that your membership can and your membership can share with each other, and then can share insightfully with folks who are seeking, uh, seeking that group wisdom, that knowledge. Like, how did you and this town do this? How this community do this?
How can we scale this? And
[00:45:23] Jill Poet: you, you're so right, Phil, because so many of our members are very proactively involved with their communities in, in lots of different ways. I mean, they're. They'll all have their separate passions, and it might be that they're very passionate about helping homeless or it might be, um, that they're, they're staunch environmentalists, but it is very much walking the talk and actually doing something about it very proactively, which is exciting to see.
[00:45:53] Phil Dillard: It's very exciting. It's very exciting and we're in interesting times making interesting changes. So I do hope that we, um, have the ability to talk in 10 years about how success is going for you and where the organization's grown to. I'll settle for a year or two to check in and see how things are going, but thank you so much for your time and really appreciate you, uh, talking
[00:46:13] Jill Poet: with us today.
It's been an absolute pleasure, Phil. Thank you so much for inviting me.
[00:46:17] Phil Dillard: You're very welcome. We really appreciate it and, um, thank you everyone for joining another episode of Through Line to the Force Sector. We'll be back again soon. Please take a moment to rate and review the show and join us each week for a new episode. Thank you for listening.
Narrator: Thank you for listening to this episode of Thruline to the 4th Sector. I'm your host, Phil Dillard. If you enjoyed the show, please leave a rating and tell a friend. To learn more about the four sector economy, visit thrulinenetworks.com. That's T H R U L I N E networks.com.
Thanks again and we hope to have you with us in the next episode.