This episode features a conversation between Phil Dillard, Founder of Thruline Networks, and Corey Blumenthal, Sustainability Specialist at Shake Shack. In this episode, Corey talks about the importance of breaking down food sustainability into digestible pieces, no pun intended. She brings to light the current talent gap in the sustainability field, the urgency of empowering people to act now, and provides a glimpse into the future of corporate social responsibility and impact.
This episode features a conversation between Phil Dillard, Founder of Thruline Networks, and Corey Blumenthal, Sustainability Specialist at Shake Shack.
Corey spent years in public relations, witnessing firsthand the influence businesses have in driving social and environmental change. Her work inspired her to return to school to complete a Master's in Energy & Sustainability from Northwestern University, concentrating on sustainable food systems, and leading her to her current role.
In this episode, Corey talks about the importance of breaking down food sustainability into digestible pieces, no pun intended. She brings to light the current talent gap in the sustainability field, the urgency of empowering people to act now, and provides a glimpse into the future of corporate social responsibility and impact.
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Guest Quotes
“In business practice, sustainability is good business. It's efficiency, it drives revenue based on this efficiency. It drives consumer retention, it drives employee retention. I think it's just generally good business and I imagine especially with, hopefully, policy regulations, it's going to be something that isn't just a nice to have, but a requirement for organizations. And I do see that happening, fingers crossed, hopefully sometime in the near future, which goes back to collaboration. You know, we need to have cross industry, we need to have cross sector, private, public. This isn't something we can solve climate change as a silo.” - Corey Blumenthal
Episode Timestamps
(00:46) Corey’s current role and background
(07:24) The talent gap in sustainability
(09:18) Making discussing sustainability easily digestible
(14:46) Consumer responses to sustainability
(16:43) The DNA of Shake Shack, it’s mission and structure
(25:58) Micro versus macro sustainability issues
(34:04) The philosophy and cost behind eating sustainably
(35:41) Unpacking sustainability
(42:50) Quick hit questions
Links
Phil Dillard: Hello and welcome to Thruline to the 4th Sector, where we're exploring fourth sector capitalism and impact investing as an invitation to innovation and changing the world. This episode features a conversation between Phil Dillard, Founder of Thruline Networks and Corey Blumenthal, Sustainability Specialist at Shake Shack.
Corey spent years in public relations witnessing firsthand the influence businesses have in driving social and environmental change. Her work inspired her to return to school to complete a Master's in Energy and Sustainability from the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, concentrating on sustainable food systems and leading to her current role at Shake Shack. Cory works with a network of suppliers to build transparent, ethical, and sustainable supply chains from ingredient sourcing to packaging. Her goal is always the same: do the right thing and stand for something good.
In this episode, Corey talks about the importance of breaking down food sustainability into digestible pieces, no pun intended. She brings light to the current talent gap in the sustainability field, the urgency of empowering people to act now and provides a glimpse into the future of corporate social responsibility and impact. Now, please enjoy this interview between Phil Dillard and Corey Blumenthal.
Hello everyone, and welcome again to another episode of Thruline to the 4th Sector. I'm your host, Phil Dillard, here today with Corey Blumenthal, Sustainability Specialist at Shake Shack. How are you doing, Corey?
[00:01:38] Corey Blumenthal: I'm great. So, so excited to be here.
[00:01:41] Phil Dillard: So excited to have you. Thanks so much for making the time. It's not only because, you know, I like a shake shack every so often, but it's great to see someone who has, um, focused a lot of their career in a space that really was in a space, you know, 5, 10, 15 years ago.
Definitely not to the extent where it is right now. So, love to hear a little bit about your story, about how you got here. What you're seeing in the market and what the future looks like.
[00:02:08] Corey Blumenthal: Yeah. Let's dig in. No pun intended,
[00:02:10] Phil Dillard: outstanding. So I always start with the easiest softball question I think I could come up with.
When people ask you what you do, how do you describe what you
[00:02:19] Corey Blumenthal: do? So I actually get asked this quite a lot. I think put simply my role at Shake Shack is to help the company continue to expand our footprint as a restaurant, while minimizing our impact on the environment and the communities that we serve.
So what does that look like? Ultimately, I work across our business touching most of the departments. For instance, I work with our incredible supply chain team to look at how we're sourcing ingredients. I collaborate with design and construction to ensure we're being as energy efficient as we can. Um, I work with marketing to make sure we're effectively communicating our initiatives and our progress internally to employees and stakeholders as well as externally to our consumers.
[00:03:02] Phil Dillard: Outstanding. And I definitely wanna dig into how that works and how that works inside the organization from operations and strategy and different components of how to make a good business that leverages sustainability. But we wanna start with you first. So we'll come back to that a little bit. So we looked your background and can you tell us like how did you get involved in sustainability as a field from where you started, both like academically in your career?
[00:03:29] Corey Blumenthal: It's a funny story, but when I was younger, we were assigned a project about something that revolutionized the 20th century. I'm taking you guys way back here, but I remember my classmates were choosing projects like the space race and the opening of Disneyland and the Beatles. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I was asking my mom, what do you think?
And she suggested the invention of plastic since at the time, I mean it was revolutionary, it's cheap, versatile, easy to produce. The project opened a Pandora's box, though I learned a lot about how it was negatively impacting the environment, and this was when I was in. Elementary school or middle school.
So some of the stuff we know now about microplastics that wasn't even out yet. So I remember being so shocked to learn that plastic doesn't decompose. So all the plastic that has ever been produced is still present in one form or another. So, I kind of continued to learn about it. And when I went to undergrad at the University of Illinois, I minored in Earth Society and the environment.
And at the time, that was a relatively new program at U I U C. I know you mentioned earlier, but I feel like sustainability has just overnight become the, the field to be in. But when I was an undergrad, it not, it wasn't really, I would tell people I'm, this is my minor, and people didn't even know that was a school at the, they didn't even know so, I'm really glad I did that because it kind of inspired me and made me see that there's so many different roles in the inter, like in the industry itself.
Um, and so it, it inspired me to continue to pursue this career
[00:05:04] Phil Dillard: so, Yeah, it's pretty amazing how it's gone from how the career itself has grown. I mean, I bet if we looked at the, the tenure, like when these schools started and how long they've been running and how much they've changed, it's just uh, it's just tremendous.
And it's kind of inspirational for those people who dig into it because there are some people who are on the other side who only see doom and gloom and. And when you hear the statistics about plastic and plastic recycling and the depths of detail about it, it could be downright. Um, disheartening is coming from a guy who, like you at, at a young age, looked at recycling as a really interesting thing to explore as a Eagle Scout project, and then found it was not the panacea we hoped it to be, and that there was a long, long way to go from the basic starts.
Now you started out in communications and then moved into sustainability, and I actually find that as I talk to more and more people, a lot of people start in marketing and communications and upside and move into sustainability. But you also went to school for that. So can you talk a little bit about the thought process?
Like there was something there for you, you wanted to be engaged in something more. How did you decide where and what to do and then, and how did it lead to this?
[00:06:17] Corey Blumenthal: Yeah, so after graduating from undergrad, I went to Ketchum, which is a global public relations agency, and all of the accounts I was working on, they were tied to corporate social responsibility or CSRs.
So for instance, some of my work was helping General Mills with their regenerative agriculture pilots, or working on Proctor and Gamble's plant-based laundry detergents. And I think that this work really emphasized to me the importance of properly communicating sustainability initiatives and social impact work.
Ultimately, the topic is pretty dense, and some people, amazingly enough, aren't interested in it, or they just don't care. So figuring out how to efficiently articulate what we're doing, especially if there's science involved, it's critical to help. The consumers understand so that they can actually see the measurable impact of your work.
So I think that's probably why a lot of people come from communications, cuz it is such a critical aspect of sustainability work, being able to put into words what you are doing so that people can understand it. Even talking about education behind what climate change is and what's happening. Like you said, it is really.
I mean it's, it can be quite depressing. So being able to approach it in a way that it's an approachable topic. So when the pandemic hit, I had been working at Ketchu and I saw how brittle the food and agriculture system, the supply chain was, and I knew that I wanted to pivot to focus solely on food because before that, like I said, I was.
Working across c, pg, and food. But this really stuck with me and I, I said, okay, I wanna focus solely on food and agriculture. So I went back and I got my master's at Northwestern in energy and sustainability, and it was a really great program because I was able to, Take classroom experience and pair it with real-time experience.
Some of our professors were already in the industry and that's a huge part of sustainability right now is connecting with people who are already in it cuz it's so new and hearing what they're doing. And I think that's what makes the program a bit more unique to the other. Master's programs in the field right now.
So while unconventional, like I think my time as a student has been like really helpful in getting a footing in the industry since I was exposed to a variety of different topics in sustainability from like water stewardship to environmental policy, not just solely focused on food and ag.
[00:08:50] Phil Dillard: So that opens the door to a whole lot of questions, but I'm gonna stick with the last one there.
What do you think is the mix of your peers in your level, in the industry, of people who have a degree in sustainability versus those who don't?
[00:09:02] Corey Blumenthal: Honestly, that's a great question. I am leaning towards it being. 50 50. I think that a lot of people, mid-career have transitioned into sustainability. That might not have been the initial role they started with at that company, but it's evolved.
I know I've talked to people who were initially in the finance department and it's now. Evolved to be sustainability or corporate relations, investor relations that said the other half who might have graduated college and are now looking at jobs. I think a lot of them are going back to school, seeing that this is such a like a lucrative field right now and it's only gonna get bigger.
We're only gonna need more people. There's so many articles about the sustainability talent gap, and I think that people are seeing it as a true investment, not only in the future of. Society, but in their future too. So it's, I think about 50
[00:09:59] Phil Dillard: 50. Okay. That's pretty cool. I don't mean this quite next question as a test or anything, but I'm very curious, you know, because you said something really important.
People need us to break down these topics into digestible bits and pieces so they can understand them in in context that makes sense. And they can just kind of feel like they're empowered to act and not just like full of fear. One trick is you mentioned corporate, social responsibility, sustainability, and impact.
And I would add, and you actually said regeneration. I would add in there regeneration too, right? Because there are four things that are related but not the same. And there is this tricky. Way of trying to explain nuance to people, but also to trying to get them the bits and pieces. So have you learned any tricks or tips of how you define those things or how you categorize those things or how you communicate those things in ways that work in broad messaging to audiences?
[00:10:56] Corey Blumenthal: Yeah, I think a lot of times what we do is we look at the specific term that we're trying to define and look at the stakeholder that we're trying to define it for. So if I were defining, for instance, impact for. Consumers versus for supplier partners versus for investors. I think the definition would evolve based on who I'm talking to.
So I think that that's why the industry is kind of, there's not one standard definition for a lot of these terms that we're using, which is confusing to people and understandably so. If we're throwing around regeneration and sustainability and. You don't know the difference. I think it can be quite confusing.
I do think there is a common thread through all of those, which is positively impacting. So regeneration, for instance, I think when I hear regeneration, I automatically think of regenerative agriculture, which is just one of my passion points, and that is, A holistic system that does better for the soil than conventional farming.
It's all about, I think one thing they all have, I guess, is evolving perhaps.
[00:12:10] Phil Dillard: Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, if I go back to myself and I go, I had a personal evolution when I heard about the word things like regeneration versus sustainability. Cuz the first thought is, oh gosh, is there another term?
Do we need another term? And how does it, what does it matter? But then I try and have this thing where I replace. Skepticism with curiosity and go say, okay, what is, how is regeneration different than sustainability? And when once I had an understanding of an ability to grasp it, then I could actually start to communicate why it was different and why it mattered.
I've heard some great examples of this. Do you have any sort of metaphors that you use or any sort of really good ways to convey certain parts of it that you've seen out there that. Really stuck with
[00:12:53] Corey Blumenthal: people. I think this is a very specific one to my work at Shake Shack, but for instance, I think a lot of people are highly skeptical of.
Protein based on what they hear in the industry about the methane associated with it. Right. And I always think it's not the cow, it's the how. A lot of what we're talking about, the impact of it is based off of how things are done. So how are the cattle raised? What are we doing? On the farm that impacts the cow and that impacts everything else.
And I think the same kind of goes for almost all of sustainability. It's what are we doing that results in that impact. Yeah,
[00:13:41] Phil Dillard: I love that one. And I will have to borrow the, it's not the cow, it's the how. Because if I think of Shake Shack and I think a recent initiative you guys have, I think about sustainable dairy for the shakes, right?
And then the veggie burger with actual veggies, right? And sustainably sourced meat, protein, all of which matter to different folks at different stages, cuz some people don't. Don't want to be vegetarian. Some people want to have a burger every now and then. Some people need that type of protein in their diets.
There are different places where different people are and meeting each one of those with a good, how is something that you guys seem to be onto? Is there anything you'd add to
[00:14:18] Corey Blumenthal: that? I mean, definitely we are a burger company and we're not gonna stop selling burgers, but I don't think we have to. I think that it's not necessarily.
All on the consumer to change their diet. It's more so how do we better source the ingredients that we're using so that you can eat burgers and feel good about it. Uh, I think a really cool project that I actually worked on this year was, I mean, we saw a lot of milkshakes. Milk is a pretty. Carbon intense product.
So we identified a new milk supplier, neutral milk out of Oregon, and they are carbon neutral certified milk, and we have rolled it out to our Pacific Northwest shacks and are working to roll it out elsewhere, which is. Great. People can still enjoy the milkshake they love. I know I would order cookies, cookies, and cream and feel better about it knowing that we have taken the time and made the effort to make sure that it is sustainably sourced, that we are working to better the environment.
Yeah,
[00:15:25] Phil Dillard: and it's important that the effort is made. It's important that the communication is right on, and authenticity really matters. I remember I saw this term you used called the cl ofor, right? And it reminds me of people who I talk to who say, I just wanna know that what I'm doing, if I'm making an effort to do something, is the right thing.
If I'm standing there and I can go left to Shake Shack and I can go right to McDonald's, and I know that the shake at Shake Shack is more sustainably sourced and more in line with my ethos, I can vote with my dollars and, and my feet. Right. If I know that the, the beef is pasture raised and sustainably raised and humanely slaughtered, or whichever, at least I can be moving in that direction and saying, this is something I agree with.
So do you guys have a bit of a, how do you have a feedback loop with those consumers to understand what they want, how they feel, how they're responding to these
[00:16:21] Corey Blumenthal: things? So first off, I totally agree. Purchasing power is everything. And having consumers, maybe you are paying more, but you are paying more for a quality product.
And I think this kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier, but really communicating to the consumer what they're gonna get from this. So what do you get when you get a burger Shake? Got Shake Shack, you are supporting. Farmers who use sustainable practices, you are getting high quality ingredients.
I think that that's something that we're working on doing at Shake Shack is just communicating to people all the good that we are doing. I mean, we were started upon the the term stand for something good and I think it's still stand trues. We are working to be the best that we can be and I think it's important that consumers know that so that they can use their purchasing power.
You know,
[00:17:16] Phil Dillard: that's funny cuz it leads into the next question I was gonna ask you. I was gonna ask you, uh, why you joined this company, but it, to me, it seems to be a bit obvious, especially because of the, the mission statement. But maybe you can tie that to the work that you talk about with regenerative agriculture, because sometimes people say, everybody says high quality ingredients.
Right? But how do you showcase that? How do you prove that? How do you communicate that? Like if you're talking about regenerative agriculture and the nutrient density that's supposed to come from macronutrients and phytonutrients and micronutrients because of those practices, right? It's really hard to convey that to somebody in a one shot marketing message about how Shake Shack is different, but it's probably foundational to you being authentic and you really, really digging into living that ethos.
So, How do you tackle that? How do you see that as part of the, the DNA of Shake Shack or is it something that you're building?
[00:18:14] Corey Blumenthal: I definitely think it's always something we're continuing to work on. I personally am. A huge foodie, and I don't think a lot of people truly understand the impact that climate change is gonna have on our food and agriculture system.
Many of the foods that we love or that I love, like coffee and chocolate, they're being impacted by higher than average temperatures and shifting weather patterns. And I don't wanna just sit here and watch some of my favorite foods disappear, which is why I said during Covid, I'm gonna go back to school.
I'm gonna focus on food and agriculture. I also think that it's. Often overlooked as a way that we're gonna mitigate climate change. There are so many ways right now that we can evolve the current system to help reduce methane in co2. So like you said, one example is just widespread transition to regenerative agriculture.
And for those who might not know, regenerative agriculture help sequester co2. And it can reverse what conventional agriculture is contributing right now to climate change. So whether that be farmers using no-till farming or cover cropping, all of this is gonna help enhance biodiversity and reduce soil erosion, which is.
Critical. So since there is no one definition to regenerative agriculture, I always say it's kinda like the wild, wild west out there. I think to make it part of the brand, like we're gonna have to educate the consumers about it. We're gonna have to say, this is what regenerative agriculture is, is, and this is how we're helping support it.
So out in um, California, we actually sell. A regenerative burger. We work with Richard's regenerative, grass-fed beef, and it's fully regenerative, which is amazing. And we're looking at ways we can continue to incorporate regenerative agriculture into our overall supply chain across. All Shaq locations.
[00:20:14] Phil Dillard: And that's, that's, um, I mean that's really, um, impressive, right? Because it takes a, a lot of effort and a lot of commitment to, to do that and a lot of, um, knowledge of the market as well as the will to try and manage the work and the prices, all of it, to deliver a high quality product. That people are, that is actually differentiated in the mind of the consumers, which is, which is, um, commendable.
Definitely. Is there anything else in the organization like, um, some people do it because it's their, I go to Ben and Jerry's, right? You know, Ben and Jerry's did it because they're like, this is just the right thing to do and we're gonna do stuff that we think is the right thing to do. We're gonna live as an organization that thinks it's the right thing to do.
What is it that drives Shake Shack? Is it, uh, the organizational culture? Is it an executive founder? Is it emerging organization that says, you know what, we used to be X and we need to be y. And like, what's driving the company that way?
[00:21:08] Corey Blumenthal: I think it's a combination of everything you just said. Ultimately, shake Shack was born out of a charity work in Madison Square Park in New York, so I mean, it really started standing for something good and I think that that was what.
The founder, Danny Meyer, wanted to kind of continue as we, we expanded and grew the footprint. I think internally, employees are very excited about it. I think our consumers are really excited about it. I think that there's a ton going into it that's making us want to be a better organization, and we've been doing these practices since the beginning.
It's just now kind of how do we communicate that to everybody that, hey, We've been doing this and we're gonna continue to do this and we're gonna, we're gonna do even more. So I think that that is a work in progress. We're working on it. It's a really exciting time since consumers are now more interested in it than they were in the past.
And I think that's another reason why it's getting more of a focus. But it is an ongoing journey for us and something we're gonna continue to work
[00:22:21] Phil Dillard: on. Sure. Super. Um, organizationally, that requires some of its challenges and it must be particularly interesting for you because you, as you said at the top, you have to cross boundaries of a number of different organizations.
And it's one thing if you're a p and l owner, right? If you're like, The person who's responsible for running the stores in a region, that's one thing, right? You can drive a lot of those changes. You own budget, you have the other thing. But if you're someone who's supposed to influence across the organization, that's a little bit tougher.
Can you tell a little bit about how to, to what extent you can, like how you're structured and how, um, the structure allows you to do some of the things that you need to do to influence the different parts of the organization?
[00:23:07] Corey Blumenthal: Definitely. So I sit on our supply chain team, which I think is an excellent position for me since I can then work with our supply chain team for sourcing ingredients, which is again, really the bulk of what we do is food, right?
So the bulk of our environmental impact. Is the direct result of the food we source, the food we sell. So I think that's a great spot for me to be in. I do work very closely with design and construction, looking at, Hey, we're gonna open X, Y, Z shacks. How can we continue to to grow as a business serving the food we love?
Minimizing our environmental impact and the impact on the communities that we are creating restaurants in. So work closely with them. I work closely with marketing. Like I said, we're doing all this stuff across our entire team. How do we tell employees? How do we tell investors? How do we tell consumers what we are doing?
And then working closely with our legal team as well, and. It's really cross collaboration, which is
[00:24:16] Phil Dillard: p. Sure. But if I hear you right, you're part of the supply chain organization, right? So someone who says, well, I need something from supply chain, might go and say that, you know? Um, a number of years ago, one of the things that really, um, drew me deeper into this work was I was having a conversation with the head of it was supply chain and sustainability and sales, right?
And the salesperson says I needed to hit X amount of revenue. Right. And I just means I need to sell why I'm out of product. And the sustainability and supply chain person said, yeah, um, there's not enough sugar on the planet to be able to hit those production targets given the amount of, uh, sugar we're consuming right now, period.
Right? Like they saw a, not even a theoretical limit, but a real production limit to be able to do business as usual. That made them significantly change the organization and their ability to collaborate, allowed them to kind of, uh, adjust. Sometimes I think people run up against organizational hurdles between like departments.
Do you feel like your company is structured in a way that is kind of like intentionally, uh, aware of those hurdles and boundaries for the sustainability perspective and actually, you know, permitting, empowering you to do that? Or is it part of the culture? Is it. Part of the structure, like how does it tackle those challenges and conflicts?
[00:25:38] Corey Blumenthal: So I definitely think it's part of the culture. We at Shake Shack, everybody who works there cares about the work that they're doing, cares about the environment, cares about our customers. I think that's what makes it such a fun and unique place to dine, is that there's really just this element of customer service.
So I think that that kind of relates to this in the sense that. Across all of the departments that I mentioned. We want to be doing what's right for the environment and we want to be helping. So I think that in that sense, we're really set up for success because we want to cross collaborate and we want to drive change.
As I said earlier, there really is no standard right now in the industry. Things are just evolving constantly, and I think that. As time goes on, we might change how the sustainability work is done at Shake Shack, but as of right now, what we're doing is seeming to work. We're able to collaborate, but I do think that, of course, as our needs and priorities shift, so might how we organize our work.
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And now back to the interview.
Okay, so if I'm hearing you right, you know, if you're building a new shack, you're gonna like, how do I make that net zero construction practices, energy practices, waste management, engaging with the local community, waste water, all those different things. So I'm a great steward of natural resources and building as efficiently as possible.
And if I expand that out to like regional preferences now maybe, you know, In California, people are loving the sustainable burger and maybe they care a little bit less in Texas, but you're gonna work on the sustainability of it so that it's meeting the desires and I can optimally run the business.
Where does it go? Does it go into things like, if you think about health and nutrition, Or you think about waste and consumption issues that are bigger macro health and sustainability issues. Is the company already moving in that direction? Do you see that as a natural evolution? Does the company drive it or follow trends or a little bit of both?
[00:28:53] Corey Blumenthal: I think it's a little bit of both. I do think in general business practice sustainability. Is good business. It's efficiency. It drives revenue based on this efficiency. It drives consumer retention, it drives employee retention. I think it's just generally good business, and I imagine especially with hopefully policy regulations, it's gonna be something that.
Isn't just a nice to have, but, but a requirement for organizations. And I do see that happening. Fingers crossed, hopefully sometime in the near future, which goes back to collaboration. You know, we need a. To have cross industry, we need to have cross sector, private, public. We need to be working. This isn't something we can solve climate change as a silo.
Us at Shake Shack, we can't solve it alone. We are working with other organizations. We are working with our supplier partners, and the same goes for, for all these other companies. You know, it's not one organization is gonna be able to, to move the needle. We all need to work together to do it.
[00:30:01] Phil Dillard: I appreciate that a lot.
Right. Do you see that, um, collaboration with those key partners is leading towards some industry coalitions or anything that will change the structure of the industry? Or is it still kind of early where you know, you're. Working with local suppliers and your relationship with local suppliers are strong, but it's not changing.
Say, it's not changing how cattle ranchers raise and fatten cows on feed lots or something of that nature, like it's, it's something that's niche but not macro.
[00:30:34] Corey Blumenthal: It's a bit of both. For instance, a lot of organizations are doing open source information, which is incredible. I know Chipotle has done something very similar where they try a sustainability initiative and they give information to anybody who wants it on that initiative.
What worked, what didn't work, like exactly what they were doing, which I think is. Really just awesome because now other organizations who were considering doing something similar can take their key learnings and use it to benefit the business and say, okay, this didn't work. Let's change what we're doing.
Let's change our approach and do X, Y, Z. So I think that's one thing that's happening in the industry, and I think. It's great and I, I, I hope that it continues to, to expand. I do think there are industry coalitions for specific areas such as packaging, which is really helpful because, I mean, all restaurants use packaging, so it's something that's material to all of our businesses and something that would benefit all of us.
I do think at Shake Shack, our work right now is a bit more micro, like you said, looking at how we can partner with. Our fry supplier to reduce the packaging that our fries come in. How can we work with our waste management operator to ensure things are being composted? That right now is our focus, and eventually, hopefully we can expand, but it's a relatively new journey for us at Shake Shack and we're still getting a footing and continuing to see what's material to the business and where we can make the biggest impact.
[00:32:15] Phil Dillard: Yeah, I think that's really, um, it really makes sense. It's really interesting and it's also really inspiring that, you know, a company like Chipotle is gonna say, look, we're gonna help the industry by showing you what we did well and what we didn't do well, and what worked and what didn't. Because I think at this stage in the whole world of sustainability, regenerative impact, whichever.
There is so much that needs to move in the right direction, that you've gotta avoid as many mistakes as possible. You've gotta avoid as many self-inflicted wounds on the industry, cuz then the industry can effectively police itself in advance of regulation. Cuz you know that the industry's gonna move faster than, than than government Anyway, that consumers and.
Free market forces working well can do a lot of great things, especially if we're thinking about more than just profit. And I think sometimes people hear more than just profit and they think it's anti profit and anti-capitalist, and I think this is the furthest thing from anti profit and anti-capitalist.
I'm curious if you've seen any sort of anecdotes in sectors or markets or products that have shown extremely good returns on all those factors because of the way you're thinking.
[00:33:31] Corey Blumenthal: First, I just wanna say we're all working towards the same goal, whether that's reducing carbon emissions or improving livelihood of farmers, we're all working towards the same goal, so we should work together to reach it, which is kind of what I think the, the purpose of the open source information is.
I read a really interesting book by Gabe Brown, uh, dirt to Soil. It's about regenerative agriculture and it shows how transitioning to regenerative practices actually. Improves a farmer or a rancher's livelihood, they are able to yield more. Their soil is better. It's just an overall, like the transition is just so much better.
And I think a lot of people are really hesitant to change. I know I personally don't like change either. I get it. But in order to make a change, we have to change. And so I think. That was a really good book for me to read. I'm not a farmer, I'm not a rancher. I'm not out there. But to see that there is evidence, there's, they took soil samples and the soil was healthier when using regenerative practices and when soil is healthier, it produces more.
So I think that was a really good example. I think a lot of people don't have that connection to their food. They go to the grocery store and they expect there to be strawberries even in the middle of winter, and I don't think they necessarily comprehend that to have strawberries in the middle of winter in New York City, that strawberry most likely had to be harvested elsewhere and then transported to that grocery store, meaning it has.
High emissions associated with it. So when you are eating, In season through a CSA box, not only does it taste amazing cuz you're like, wow, I'm really, I'm eating earth's bounty right now. But it has less emissions associated with it. The food hadn't, hasn't traveled as far necessarily.
[00:35:30] Phil Dillard: Nobody really thinks about it until you think about it, right?
So you've seen someone do something. It's like if you've never seen an animal butchered. Or you've never caught a fish, inflated a fish before you ate it, or you never pulled something out of the ground. People don't normally think about that stuff because it's just not something you think about, especially with a bunch of people who don't cook food themselves.
Cause food comes prepared or comes in a box that they turn into something, something else. So you're disassociated from it. But if people really knew and thought there's only a few climates on the planet where you can grow blueberries naturally, and I know a blueberry farmer. In Georgia who harvested his blueberries and put them on a plane in nitrogen and flew them halfway around the world to Japan because people would pay a premium for fresh blueberries coming from Georgia in season.
It's just, it's mind blowing how much. We put into the logistics and the chemicals and the mechanical process and all this other stuff when you can really, in most parts of the country, you know, go a few miles and really get what you need from their bread basket. So it kind of leads me to a, like a little bit of a, Philosophical questions because in some part of your work in your organization and with the consumers internally and externally, you want to get people attuned to what they want versus what they need and what the real is for that.
How do you manage that? Because that's, that's beyond the, like the blocking tackling of your, of your role that's in the influencing of your role to ask. Sometimes, um, tough questions in an uncertain space. How do you do that?
[00:37:11] Corey Blumenthal: I think speaking personally, I'm trying my hardest to incorporate this across the work that I'm doing.
I have an extreme passion for, I think, what is a triangle right now. And I say that there is the highest amount of food waste right now. But at the same time, there's the most amount of people who are facing hunger or hunger or food insecurity at the same time that there's the most Americans facing diet related disease.
So there's this triangle and I'm, I mean, it's mind boggling and I don't think you think about it until you think about it, like you said. And then, like I said, it's the Pandora's box and it's always there. And you're at the grocery store and you are thinking, wow, you're walking through the aisles thinking about.
That was made in a lab, that was whatever. So I think that it's not necessarily something I am able to tackle just yet. I think it's something I'm continuing to work through based on what I'm doing in my job and in my personal life.
[00:38:14] Phil Dillard: Super. I feel like we could go on for a long time, and I gotta be respectful of your time.
So I have one more question for you before we get to the lightning round. It's really for the listeners. Who are earlier on in this journey, right? We've all come through our past to where we've gotten to here. What suggestions do you have for them? For people who are trying to unpack what sustainability really means and how to, how to accelerate their learning, their catching up to this point with the least amount of effort, what would you suggest?
[00:38:45] Corey Blumenthal: I think that it's all about simple, small steps, especially for people who are very new to it, don't know what it is, how can they help? I mean, I think recycle. Make sure that you're recycling when you can. Reduce your plastic use. Do so bring a cup to Starbucks. You get a discount when you do that. There's just so many things you can do as a consumer.
Bring your own bags when you go shopping. And I know these all sound like very small actions and, and they are small, but if everybody were doing them, it would cost. A shift, it would cause a systematic shift. And like you said, purchasing power is everything. Continue to support the brands that you know are doing better, that you know, are putting in the environment first, because that's how we vote with our dollar.
And I think another area people can, can do is just continue to read and learn about it. I mean, there is just so much information out there about sustainability, about food and agriculture, about renewable energy and, and just learning and reading really opens. It opens the door and you, and you learn more.
You talk to people. This is a conversation that I think just needs to be a continued conversation, an open conversation, people asking questions, and I think that is how we're gonna make a change as if it becomes more public. And I know people are probably saying, oh, and I know it's talked about everywhere, but is it, is it talked about everywhere?
Maybe renewable energy is maybe. Plastic is, but I don't necessarily think food and agriculture is the main topic of conversation when it comes to sustainability. And maybe it should be because it is such an easy way for us to reduce methane emissions and CO2 emissions and, and help shift where food is going so more people have access to it and improve farmers' livelihood.
So I just think it's, it's a really loaded. Topic and I could talk about it for hours and hours. I'm sure my friends and family are sick of hearing about it, but I just think it's, it's really, we have such an incredible opportunity.
[00:40:45] Phil Dillard: Because there are little actions that every person can take that don't necessarily in the individual little action matter that much, but in your mindset and in the aggregate, they matter a ton.
You know when you bring your bag and you think, you know, how many times have I come and used a bag just once? When I could use this bag 10 times and then you find yourself using the bag For d I use my, my, if I grab, get paper bags from the grocery, I use 'em five to 10 times before they're, I use them when they've worn out, not just once since throw away like, like I did for decades before.
And you go, gosh, that's a whole lot of, a lot of paper and energy and such. Or if you think about food waste and you go. You know, you say, how could we be possibly growing more food than ever, but still have people who have either have health related diseases because they're not eating the right foods, or they have food instability cuz they can't get access to it.
Unbelievable. You know, what little thing am I, am I doing that could do my part? And then the ripple effects, you know, those are the things that that will matter.
[00:41:52] Corey Blumenthal: And I think thinking about it, just even thinking about it, you're at the grocery store and you are really hungry and you're just putting things in your basket.
Not thinking, oh wait, I'm going out to dinner three nights this week. Or, oh, I'm going out of town next week. Don't just buy to buy. Buy what you need so you can reduce food waste. I think the same goes for clothing. It's su. We live in such a world where there's new trends every day. People are just continuing to shop, shop, shop.
I've started personally, and maybe this is helpful for listeners, but if I feel like I want a new piece of clothing or a new pair of shoes, I say, would I have liked those shoes six months ago? Would I have liked those shoes a year ago? Would I have liked those shoes two years ago? And I think it's been really helpful for me to be like, wait a second.
I just suddenly want this pair of shoes because it's what everybody else is wearing and it's cool. And I think it's just really helpful to take a step back and think about the actions of what you're doing and what it, what it might entail. So me buying this, I don't need that pair of shoes. So I'm not gonna buy them.
I am going out to dinner three nights this week, so I'm not gonna buy that huge thing of lettuce that I know is gonna sit in my fridge and not be eaten. I think small, just thinking about it in your, in your daily life is, is gonna lead to you being able to make butter decisions
[00:43:15] Phil Dillard: and it helps you put an experience.
On big words that are not tractable, that like when you talk, when people talk about hyper consumerism or over consumption, it sounds like something that bad ignorant people do. When you talk about buying that big head of cabbage and letting it rotten your refrigerator because you didn't need it, or you were gonna use one thing and you just kind of forgot about it, and then saying, if you looked.
Something I learned recently, it takes a pineapple grower 18 months to grow a pineapple. The minute I learned that it took someone 18 months to grow a pineapple, Then they have to ship it to me. I treated pineapple as something so much more sacred because it took so much effort and care and energy and resources to get that to me.
I will never waste a pineapple knowing what I know now. I won't buy it. I was just like, I was floored, but who knew? You know? You just never even, you never think about those things.
[00:44:13] Corey Blumenthal: Exactly. There's just so much input that goes into everything that we consume and. I before this conversation, gobbled pineapple and didn't even think about it.
So now it's every bite you take, like, oh, this took effort. There was inputs to make this, and I think that that is a cultural shift we're gonna have to figure out to have people thinking about. What it took to make certain items, what it took to get that pineapple to you or that banana to you, or what it takes to create a milkshake or a burger in our case.
So I think that it's something we're working towards.
[00:44:49] Phil Dillard: It starts to shift. It starts to shift towards thankfulness and thinking about equity and thinking about. All the benefits of thinking in a slightly different way than just about what's expedient or convenient for me right now because there are lots of other people around.
[00:45:06] Corey Blumenthal: I think it's all goes back to awareness and me seeing you do that, oh wait, that doesn't look too hard. I can do that and then I do it and then somebody in my network does it and it's just, that is how we are gonna get the revolution
[00:45:17] Phil Dillard: going. I'm with you sister, so, all right, thanks Corey. I'm gonna pop the lightning around.
Uh, this is where we ask the same four questions of everybody before we wrap up, and they're just kind of short answers, but, um, question number one, 10 years from now, what do you think success looks like to you?
[00:45:35] Corey Blumenthal: Wow. I think being able to show that we have made a measurable impact, positive impact, measurable, positive impact on the communities we serve, the farmers we source our protein from, or the suppliers we purchase our produce and our goods from.
I think being able to say, we've done. We've reduced carbon emissions by X. We have incorporated X pounds of regeneratively raised protein into our supply chain. We have done X, Y, Z. I think that that is what success looks like to me, being able to really say, This is what we've done. Not just, oh, we've reduced emissions.
Because so many people are making big, lofty goals like net zero by 2030, and unless they have a specific roadmap and specific targets, I don't think, I don't necessarily think they might hit it. So that's what success
[00:46:26] Phil Dillard: looks like. Awesome. Super hard to think about what, 10 years it looks like, but that's, it's past the 2030 deadline, so we'll see.
Alright, second question. Right now, outside of your company, is there a specific project or program or campaign that inspires
[00:46:40] Corey Blumenthal: you? I think that there are so many amazing ones happening right now. General Mills has incredible work in regenerative agriculture. So does Chipotle with their, um, supporting farmers.
I think that there are so many cool new tech startups that are coming and creating tech that's gonna really change everything. So a really cool one is mill with their electronic food. Compost bin. Basically it turns the food into chicken feed that they then give to farmers to use and it creates a closed lube system.
Same with do good chicken. They have a really interesting system where the chickens are fed surplus. Food from grocery stores because it's nutritious and reduces methane and food waste. So I think there's just so many I can't really put, I can't really pick a favorite. I'm just rifting here on really, really cool ones I've seen recently.
But I mean, it's inspiring to see what other people are doing across. Industries, not just in food and ag, but in tech, in CPG and in, in clothing and whatnot. So,
[00:47:51] Phil Dillard: sure. Do you have a great go-to source that you'd share of like, Hey, if you wanna see more of these, check out.
[00:47:57] Corey Blumenthal: Oh, yeah. So there's an amazing email newsletter I subscribe to called Food Tech Connect, and it is incredible.
It's such a resource. You get it, I think once every week and it really hits on. On everything that's happening in the industry. I also, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I, I read the news a lot, so I think it, it's really easy right now in this day and age to stay updated on what's happening.
[00:48:24] Phil Dillard: Yeah. Super.
Thanks. Love that chair. All right. Uh, number three, what are the most important things individuals can do to lead to a better future? Holding
[00:48:33] Corey Blumenthal: yourself accountable. I know a lot of people say, it's not my problem, I'm not even gonna be here. But it isn't, it inherently right to work to make this world a better place for future generations.
So I think holding yourself accountable, being like, you know, I can do small things every day that make a big difference. Not just, oh, this, we're doomed. I'm not even gonna try. And I think a lot of people see the news and they feel that way. Nothing I can do. It's on businesses, it's on governments, and you know, it is, it is on the business and governments, it's not necessarily consumer's faults that we have plastic waste, but I.
It's in your court, the ball's in your court to react and see what you can do and, and make a difference. So use your power for good. Yeah,
[00:49:22] Phil Dillard: that's, that's a great thing. People are, um, reminds me of that quote of the, what's, what's your biggest fear? Right? It's that we are infinitely powerful because one person, one person, it's always one person who makes a difference.
Who starts it and that you never know where it's gonna take you. And I think that might scare some people because once I like to say once you see something, you can never unsee it. And sometimes that, that knowing that seeing is ignorance can be bliss
[00:49:50] Corey Blumenthal: sometimes. Totally. People don't, people don't wanna see it.
People don't wanna. If I don't think about it, it isn't real, but it is real, and we are seeing the impacts. I mean, every day that there's a new news story, oh, X is caused by climate change. And I think when you hold yourself accountable and you share too with others, Hey, I did this easy. You should try it next time.
And there we go. People start ch changing
[00:50:15] Phil Dillard: behaviors. Sure. Now, ultimately, a lot of times corporations and capitalism are the punching bag from people say, they say, oh, it's because of greed or big corporations, or whichever. But you had mentioned, and we always did mention this in one of our last things, that policy is an important part of this.
Governments is our important part of this. So what's the most important thing you think governments and NGOs can do to lead to this better future?
[00:50:40] Corey Blumenthal: I think that it's like the carrot and the stick, right? The government needs to have incentives for businesses to change their behavior. When they change their behavior, consumers change their behavior, and it's kind of a ball rolling, you know?
So I think that there should be stronger policy around certain, certain issues, and hopefully that is the way the industry is leaning or working toward, but, I think a lot of businesses might not make the change unless it's necessary and they see the benefit, oh, I need to to change because. Regulatory wise, so I think government plays a huge role in it.
I think businesses play a huge role in it. I think consumers do. I think it's a, everybody needs to get going and needs to change and shift. And if that starts with governments, I'm not sure, but I do think that they play a key
[00:51:32] Phil Dillard: role. You know, it's an interesting point. They often struggle with this, but I'll go back to Ben and Jerry, as we talked about them earlier, they did a lot of incredible things.
They drew a lot of people who were like-minded about them, but they didn't change the dairy industry. Or it's not like every, I don't think, it's not like every ice cream manufacturer has followed this lead of doing things in a different way. So there's some point where I wanna give them enough. A carrot to encourage better behavior, but some folks are stuck and I don't know how we get past that, but I, it's a really, it's a tough
[00:52:05] Corey Blumenthal: point.
I think everybody's trying to figure that out. How do we encourage some businesses that aren't gonna make the change unless they are required to make the change? But then there are the businesses like Shake Shack and Ben and Jerry's and, and other ones that. Inherently want to do better. So this is just part of our business.
You know, it's not something necessarily we need to be convinced to do. This is something we are doing and we're gonna continue to do, but how do we get the other companies on board? How can we make it so that, that it's lucrative for them that they want to do this too?
[00:52:39] Phil Dillard: Sure. And that hopefully can be part of the, our follow up story in a year or 18 months when we talk about progress that you guys made In the interim, I will definitely think a little differently every time I walk past that Shake Shack in my neighborhood.
And, um, really appreciate you for sharing some time and insights with us. It sounds like you're doing some amazing stuff and you're in a really interesting space that's critically important, but also seemingly, uh, very rewarding. So do you have any final thoughts or comments you'd like to share before we go?
[00:53:11] Corey Blumenthal: Yeah, I think I just wanna leave everybody with positivity. I mean, there are so many amazing things happening in the industry. There are so many people who are working to make it a better place. So don't lose hope. We're doing it. Together we can make a difference. I think that it's really important to remember that and not just get saddened by everything you're seeing in the news, but there's so many good things that are happening that just aren't even, aren't even in the picture.
You can't even. They're not getting the publicity, but they are happening and people care. And together we'll fight it and we'll, we'll get
[00:53:45] Phil Dillard: there. I'm more inspired all the time, so thanks so much. The good news doesn't travel as fast anywhere near as fast as the bad stuff, but, um, thanks again for making the time and for doing what you do.
Really appreciate it.
[00:53:56] Corey Blumenthal: Of course next time you're in New York, let's go to Madison Square Park and burger on me.
[00:54:00] Phil Dillard: Sounds like fun. I will definitely do it. Alright, and that's all for this time, but we'll see you again next time in the next episode of Thruline to the 4th Sector. Please take a moment to rate and review the show, and join us each week for a new episode. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening to this episode of Thruline to the 4th Sector.
I'm your host, Phil Dillard. If you enjoyed the show, please leave a rating and tell a friend. To learn more about the fourth sector economy, visit thrulinenetworks.com.
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